WPA support

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BarsMonster
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Re: WPA support

Post by BarsMonster » Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:05 pm

hardfalcon wrote:Igor: I guess this one would be more interesting:
http://www.picocomputing.com/products/s ... luster.php

If I understand the specs on their site right, they achieve 5,6 billion DES keys per second with only one or two cards. Now imagine what will happen if you got enough money and put in 15 more cards... :crazy:
32 Billion Multiply and Accumulates / Second
That it far less than on 4870 or GTX260 :crazy:

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Igor
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Re: WPA support

Post by Igor » Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:07 pm

hardfalcon wrote:Igor: I guess this one would be more interesting:
http://www.picocomputing.com/products/s ... luster.php

If I understand the specs on their site right, they achieve 5,6 billion DES keys per second with only one or two cards. Now imagine what will happen if you got enough money and put in 15 more cards... :crazy:
My (terribly uninformed and based of calculations that might as well be wrong) guess is: not much more if you'd spend the same money on graphics cards (and don't care about the energy costs and cooling requirements).

As posted above, achieving the same WPA-PSK-"bruteforcing" speed as a single E16 with graphics cards requires almost the same amount of money - not taking into account the possible improvements in WPA/PSK-bruteforcing speed sc00bz posted ITT.

So I'd say that FPGAs aren't really "faster" than graphic cards when comparing the purchase price. It's space and energy requirements where they really shine - the E16 here draws just 3.45 watts. No need for a 800 watt PSU there :sigh:

Well, and as others said, FPGAs require someone to code shit for them - and there are only a few people doing this, and they're all David Hulton :)

I looked around, and the only current/free FPGA-accelerated software seems to be jc-aircrack. The stuff from OpenCiphers is rather dated and it wouldn't be fair to compare it to other crackers.

Also, since AirCapture uses PICO cards, I guess their system with multiple FPGAs is actually a PICO supercluster. PICO sells two versions, one filled with E12s and one filled with E16s. The E16 versions consists of a maximum of 77 FPGAs in a cluster - 210 would be three clusters then, using 12 U of rackspace.

Any owner of a PICO/Aircapture FPGA supercluster up for porting the future distributed BarsWF to Verilog/VHDL and connecting it to the internet? C'mon, there must be at least some spooks around here.

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Re: WPA support

Post by Bitweasil » Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:19 am

Those who are, probably aren't interested in making it globally publicly available. And, yes, FPGAs are very efficient for what they are, it's just the interface that's a killer.

That said, Pico Computing does offer evaluation cards, and they have clusters one could test code on. The price on the FPGAs isn't too bad either. GPUs are a case of "Throw transistors at the problem", FPGAs are a case of "use transistors as efficiently as possible."

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Re: WPA support

Post by BarsMonster » Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:30 am

"use transistors as efficiently as possible" is making custom ASIC chip like nVidia G94 but developed for cracking only :crazy:
This thing could outperform FPGA by a factor of 10 :-) But it would be cost effective only at 100'000th of chips :crazy:

Actually, GPU chips are quite efficient for cracking - they have not so much redundant staff :crazy: we may throw away texturing units, memory interface, combine all multiprocessors into single one(saving on instruction fetching, decoding and stuff), probably reduce amount of registers/cache, all this would allow us to reduce just about 20-40% of transistors while maintaining the same speed.

Price of FPGA IS a problem, really big, fast and usefull ones costs more than 1000$ per chip. These 50$ chips with 50-70K LUT are too small to crack something with reasonable speed (in comparison to GPU ofcourse, they could outperorm non-SSE2 CPU :crazy: ) :-)

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Re: WPA support

Post by the_drag0n » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:06 am

BarsMonster wrote: Actually, GPU chips are quite efficient for cracking - they have not so much redundant staff :crazy: we may throw away texturing units, memory interface, combine all multiprocessors into single one(saving on instruction fetching, decoding and stuff), probably reduce amount of registers/cache, all this would allow us to reduce just about 20-40% of transistors while maintaining the same speed.
yeah you should suggest that to nvidia they sure will be doing it. then it will only cost 10$ per card and we take a thousand of them !! ;)

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Re: WPA support

Post by Igor » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:03 am

Bitweasil wrote:Those who are, probably aren't interested in making it globally publicly available.
Well, it's our taxes who pay for the darn things, so they could at least release some source ;)
Bitweasil wrote: And, yes, FPGAs are very efficient for what they are, it's just the interface that's a killer.

That said, Pico Computing does offer evaluation cards, and they have clusters one could test code on. The price on the FPGAs isn't too bad either.
Already got one - however, motivating Verilog/VHDL programmers is a really hard - they just won't do it for a cup of coffee.
the_drag0n wrote: yeah you should suggest that to nvidia they sure will be doing it. then it will only cost 10$ per card and we take a thousand of them !! ;)
They'll charge you for developing it. You need someone at an university who needs a custom chip for his thesis or other project - he won't have to pay for the design costs. Astrophysics departments seem to be a good choice, they also need stuff that gets computed fast.

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Re: WPA support

Post by bartavelle » Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:58 pm

I wrote a PoC that achieves 12k+ WPA tests/s on a GTX-280. This was not optimized and is just a naive implementation. It's still slow, even when you use smart password testing (and not brute force).

FPGAs have several advantages over GPUs :
* they take a lot less space and power
* you can add features without killing performances, like tree-based pipelined multi hash comparison, just by taking more logic gates

That means that if you want to do real password cracking, and you have a bunch of money and skill, FPGAs might turn out to be better. The cost/cracks should include the space taken and running cost of your datacenter.

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Re: WPA support

Post by _haxxor_ » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:25 pm

did you consider creating a nice and fast implementation for *rainbow crack* (wpa rainbow table generator) ?

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Re: WPA support

Post by the_drag0n » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:59 pm

ok one last time:

there is no such thing as WPA rainbowtables!

i know winrtgen has an option to generate some but there is no programm to use them! not even cain.

you can either use cowpatty or airolib to generate some 'wordlistlike files' or sqltable, but there are NO wpa rainbowtables!

anyways: i dunno what system your running on bartavelle ? is it win ? x64 ? :P if yes id marry you for sharing some bins.
i failed compiling pyrit like a million times!

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Re: WPA support

Post by bartavelle » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:08 pm

the_drag0n wrote:ok one last time:
anyways: i dunno what system your running on bartavelle ? is it win ? x64 ? :P if yes id marry you for sharing some bins.
i failed compiling pyrit like a million times!
Sorry to make you sad, it's just linux x64 ;) It should not be TOO hard to port it to windows however. Give me your email via private msg and I'll send it to you. You should be warned it sucks :)

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Re: WPA support

Post by Spaztikdude » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:37 am

the_drag0n wrote:ok one last time:

there is no such thing as WPA rainbowtables!
Yeah, the master key uses the SSID as a seed I believe, so even if we did have enough computing power to generate a table, you'd need one for every different SSID.

And before someone mentions the church of wifi's "tables", they're just precomputed from big wordlists for common SSID's.

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